'I've been treated worse than a convict'
09/08/2002

Disgraced North Yorkshire surgeon Richard Neale agreed to be interviewed yesterday, for the first time since he was struck off two years ago. This followed revelations that, just a year after being struck off for botching operations, he was appointed by a large NHS trust in Manchester as an administrator in clinical audit. The gynaecologist went on national radio to answer questions about the latest twist in the scandal. This is the transcript of an interview with veteran broadcaster John Humphrys, which went out live on BBC Radio Four

Did the hospital know of your history?
'Absolutely. The sequence of events was it was an advertised post, I applied. This was in March of last year. I was interviewed but not appointed and during the course of the interview I told them my tale, all about the GMC and my being struck off etc.

"I must have impressed to a degree because a few days later the director of personnel phoned to say that they wished to explore the possibility of employing me at some future date and that he had some inquiries to make and he would get back to me. They did so about four days later and told me they would be pleased to entertain a further application when another post arose, which it did about four to five months later."

Did they make no specific reference to the fact that you had been struck off?
"No. It was me that made the reference to it. I sent them a detailed letter explaining precisely what had happened. "

And they said nothing about that?
"The final paragraph in the letter was to the effect that the contents of the letter were the barest outline and that I would be more than happy to travel again to Manchester on an informal basis to tell them any further details they wished to ask and to answer any questions they might put to me and that was a genuine offer. They didn't take it up.

"When I applied for the second post I went to see the consultant cardiologist, the post was that of a clinical audit officer in cardiology, and I went to see the consultant cardiologist in charge of clinical audit and told him my story once more."

But you were sacked.
"I was sacked but I am still very grateful to those people at Wythenshawe who tried to give me that chance. I am only sorry that it was so precipitously taken away again."

You say it restored your faith in your fellow human beings; many people, including the women who suffered at your hands as a surgeon say it was preposterous that you should have been given this job, that you should have been allowed ever again to work in the NHS.
"Yes. I fully understand the concerns of the public. I have no wish to return to clinical medicine now but that does not mean that I have no contribution to make. Clinical audit is an important aspect of modern health care and it involves no direct contact with patients. Patients should have no fears about my activities.

"My work is largely of an academic nature and I am doing a master's degree in the quality improvement of healthcare."

You say that but the GMC inquiry into your behaviour concluded that not only were you dreadfully deficient in the standard of surgery that you performed and the care you provided to patients but you were also unprofessional and dishonest. So therefore why should you be given any sort of job in the health service at all?
"The honesty question had to do with my curriculum vitae. I believe, and I still believe that the GMC wilfully refused to believe what was clearly true. Let me give you an example. They claimed I had not undertaken a counselling course for consultants. Not only did I undertake that course the tutor on the course has confirmed it and I have a certificate to prove it and I still have the thesis I wrote at the end of it. Despite all of that the GMC, for reasons best known to themselves didn't believe it.

Mr Neale, the reality is that you were found guilty of no fewer than 34 serious mistakes. You left 11 women with long-term problems, some of whom believe that their lives have been ruined as a result of it. Should you not be apologising rather than excusing yourself?
"Of course I should apologise and I am glad you have given me the opportunity to do so. I feel dreadfully remorseful about any patients who may have been hurt at my hands, all surgeons... interruption from John Humphrys: Not may have been, with respect, were hurt.

"All right, I accept what you are saying. They were hurt, I feel badly about it, I still have nightmares about it and I am sure I shall do for the rest of my days. I feel full of remorse and humiliated, demoralised and ashamed of what has happened to me and I have apologised in public before and I repeat that again today.

"Nevertheless it does seem to be that I am not able to try and make amends, the Department of Health does seem to have deliberately interfered to prevent me reconciling myself with the NHS, an honest attempt to restore, not only my own confidence in myself but other people's trust in me."

What the Department of Health has done is to take into account of the feelings of people you so badly damaged and what they are saying is that there are some people who simply should not be allowed to work in the NHS and Richard Neale is one of them and I suspect many people listening to this programme will agree with that.
"I am sure many of them will but there are two sides of the story. I believe the Secretary of State is on record as saying that blame culture has no place in the NHS."

But my question to you is how can anybody trust somebody with your record?
"It is a slow process. Obviously at the beginning there can be no trust but it can build up over a period of time and that was what clearly happened.

"By the time I left Wythenshawe I had been given a new contract, I had been appointed to the trust development team, that is a team of ten people who were being groomed for further development and senior position within the trust, I had been appointed a project manager of a breast screening development just two days before I was summarily dismissed. It is clear that the trust believed and trusted in me and that was built up over a period of time and there was no reason why it should not continue to do so."

A group of your former patients are now saying the law should be changed so that people who are struck off for the sort of reasons you were struck off should never be allowed to work in the NHS again. What's your view of that?
"I believe that is wrong. I have very few rights. It seems I have less rights than a convicted prisoner who has left jail, who is encouraged to rehabilitate himself. I have not been given any encouragement whatsoever, rather the reverse. "

Is your career in the NHS over. Do you regard yourself as finally finished in the medical profession?
"That would be very sad indeed as I mentioned I am doing a masters degree, that will be finished next year and that will mean that I am fairly highly trained in this sphere of clinical governance and clinical audit. As part of my thesis I am going to be doing some research on the status of cardiac audit in the UK. It will be an awful shame if all that is wasted."

So you will be applying for other jobs in future?
"Well, I think I need to have some dialogue with the Department of Health so that a way forward can be found."

Do you really think that you would be offered another job?
"I was offered one in the past, just less than a year ago. I think that there needs to be some discussion at the highest level.

"If a veto is applied by the Department of Health well then, that is that and I will have to seek further professional development outside of the NHS. But that would be a very sad day.